Jung and Sul dynamics

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Jung and Sul dynamics

Post  JolliesJaded on Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:32 pm

I find myself agreeing and quite amazed by the theories presented on some posts here!
Though it is quite the dilemma to want Jung to stay together with Sul, I still want them to work out because of several reasons:

~Alike any "villain" or prospective "questionable" character in any comic or manga/manwha, (Though some may find this cliche) it is still in the nature of a story to have the other partner practically be able to melt or soften the "bad" character's heart.

~ Cheese in the Trap reminds me bit about HIS AND HER CIRCUMSTANCES (or KARE KANO) by Masami Tsuda. The dynamics of a boy-or in this case a man- that is not all that he seems and may have somewhat of a dark personality is nothing new. But Cheese in the Trap is unique because it displays this in a more mature/adult environment. Most comics/ manga depict these problem solely on HIGH SCHOOL environments as if to say "These things only happen to teenagers." But the problems and the couplings and the eminent dangers stick out to us because now they seem "real." In connection to KARE KANO, some of the same things happen. Boy meets girl. girl meets boy. and their "MASKS" as well as their "FAKE" selves are slowly stripped out of them by each other.

~ I also feel like Jung could become a better person through Sul. In many ways than one, they are similar people, and it's just not Jung just seeing that. We have seen a lot more of Sul getting out of control and enacting the same look that Jung gives people (contempt?) when he looks down on them or when he's just inherently "dissatisfied." I THINK, that Sul tends to be more open about it. She tends to be forward about her dislikes and dissatisfaction for people. She has somewhat of a mask because she doesn't always say what she means, but instead, she THINKS CAREFULLY about what she should say. Jung, on the other hand smiles and puts on a farce while carefully planning on how to isolate those he dislikes and or hates and then shows them a bit of who he really is. But even then, he is CAREFUL, for none of those that have seen his real side are able to convince anyone about it.

~ Sul is not perfect. but Jung says she understands him. I believe this is because he is able to see the same mask that he wears on Sul as well. He could become more honest and even warmer because Sul has an inherent need to not take things sitting down. She isn't like the people Jung is so used to controlling and being able to bend to his will. In either losing Sul, or being threatened to lose her, Jung looses control. He loves her, but the person he is at the moment, is at times not so qualified to have her. I think that in this case it's up to Sul to realize how much he needs her to unmask him, so that she can unmask herself. (Ahem, Example: Jung arguing with Sul. Since when does he argue with ANYONE. Since when does he immediately become PISSED and deliberately SHOWS IT? That's something SUL does. Her emotions are written on her face, but not her deep inner thoughts. similarly, Jung keeps to himself. But his emotions became "unreadable" only when SUL came along. Before  all of that, his mask was what he was to people. (His kindness, them thinking he was naturally a good person...) It was what they knew him for. Now he is found loosing face more often than not because of SUL. SHE AFFECTS HIM.

I just believe that Sul will come to realize that those times when She actually got out of control and let what she meant come out and end up ruining somebody -*AHEM* *AHEM* the girl imitating her- or that guy from the English prep schoo-l Jung will be by her side listening to her and actually understanding her.....even in his own weird twisted way... She may even learn that she has been doing the same thing he does... but at a lower scale.
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Re: Jung and Sul dynamics

Post  Doonge on Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:03 am

Kare Kano is often mentionned ^^

I like the fact that love was building slowly, as far as Jung is concerned. I'm not exactly sure of what Sul can bring to Jung that would be specific of Sul (she's not that open, she cannot express herself that well), other than the fact Jung do seem to view her as interesting (and doesn't feel contempt, as for most other people (?)). I'm not sure it's a good thing that it would be his love interest that would "open" him, I think he should have peers which he can talk openly to (but that's the tragedy of his status).

I'm not sure Jung control much people. When you compare to Sang Chul, Jung doesn't apply pressure to people to leech them off (laptop that he doesn't give back, work...). Sure, he might control the flow and not allow people to annoy him, but seems like he just want to keep his distance, which is different than controlling people (which requires a little bit more "apparent" closeness).

About the theory on "unmasking", the problem is that Jung might be afraid to scare Sul off if he unmasks himself. So it's not what Jung needs, but what would scare Sul. My guess is that it will slowly build, and that's cool.
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What Sul Brings to Jung...

Post  elvensong on Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:28 am

I think that, in the beginning, nearly 100% of what Sul brought to Jung was simply the ability to 'see through' him.

She was not impressed by, nor was she feeling entitled to his general generousity. Buying drinks and food for everyone. And she had the wit to wonder IF he was being taken advantage of. After all, what you take for granted is usually something you do not properly value or respect (until you have lost it lol). Sul did figure out that he was offering things he was comfortable with in order to maintain certain boundries. She might not have experience with that method, but she recognized it when she saw it. More than that, she offered to pay her way during a group outing, and if I had been her and listened to his friend volinteer his wallet without even checking with Jung I would have called the guy on it, even if Jung didn't. Jung doesn't do that just because he wants peace, but she easily figured out that he's smart enough to know exactly what's going on. He's just willing to pay the price, since he's got a ton of money availible to him.

But back to the first point I wanted to make. Ask yourself, just how lonely would you get if you were habitually selling people off on masks and easy buy offs? Seriously?

I think you'd get so lonely you wouldn't even know how to define it anymore. Like a fish doesn't know what wet is. You just live in it and breathe it constantly.

The moment she revealed that she saw through him, she suddenly became real to him in ways she hadn't been before. More of a person and less of a pawn on the chessboard. For someone like Jung, that would have him 1) fleeing for his life, 2) resenting or hating (and fearing underneath) her for not falling for the cheap (yet carefully constructed) mask, or 3) very very very interested in her and wanting more. With her he discovers the warmth of human contact that he wished for but did not recieve from his parents. He had to earn his place with them, while watching a pair of holigans run rampant everywhere but were still always embraced. That he had also found she was more respectable than he'd originally thought might have made it easier for him to react in the third manner.

And I also think he is aware that nothing short of 'real' is going to matter to her. Fake won't cut it. He won't be able to buy her off with wealth or charm... which means he finally has someone he had to 'live up to'... and I think there are many men who prefer a higher standard for themselves and their connections. To have a code, so to speak. You can argue that his parents were trying to give him that standard, but they seem to have made the mistake of withholding the part about knowing and accepting him... even when he made mistakes.

Sul herself has few truly close friends, but they are always truly intimate in the platonic sense of the term. When they have a problem between themselves, they deal with it in a real manner... no covering it up and just pretending it's not there and NEVER in the 'Jungian' manner of 'getting one's own back', which was the only way Jung had ever been allowed to live. His position in life pressed many 'duties' on him that shouldn't really be loaded onto a child who cannot really be expected to bring an adult's mind to such adult issues.

I can't really blame Jung for what twistedness he has, and give him full credit for the ways he DIDN'T get twisted, you know?

Looking at the matter of the pressures of his childhood and what was withheld from him (inadvertantly, I am sure), Sul has a sense of fun, and the grace to forgive fully. Jung is able to be a little bit of the fun-loving kid he might have been if his circumstances had not denied him a great deal of the 'child' one usually sees in childhood. With her, he can experiment a bit and discover the parts of himself which he had to, by neccessity, close off in his efforts to maintain as much (or at little) love as his parents were willing to visibly spare for him.

I do believe they loved him within their hearts as much as he could have wished for, but it might not have translated through... and certainly he did not then, or now feel accepted by them.

Sul, in the process of forgiveness, might need to chew it over a few days, but she doesn't ever seem to bother to 'get her own back' unless she's totally lost her temper in the moment and started a fist fight (or hair pulling contest ROFL, poooooor idiot Oh Young Gon! Relegated to girlie status like that!). The only time I've seen her attempt to manipulate was when all other options had been closed off for her, and to continue to tolerate hostile behavior would have affected her grades in the incident of Nam Joo Yeon. But what on earth COULD you do with such a relentlessly clueless woman, after all? I really think that Jung knew that the woman could only judge other's actions by her own poisonous, jealous and small-minded heart... and prolly only talked to Sul during those early days in order to get the two 'pests' to chew on one another for a while and leave him to other pursuits.

Plus, at that time, he really did seem to be using the 'get one's own back' manipulation technique on Sul just for the heck of it rather than because she had actually DONE anything to him. This certainly did come back to bite him in the rear. He'd given her many more good reason's to distrust him than Sul could, in fairness, prove. I cannot blame her for being wary of him for so long.

So there IS a lot that Sul has to offer to Jung imo. She doesn't see it because most of it is down to just who she is rather than what she can give. But Jung does see it, and value it. Which speaks well of him.

Sul has become one of my favorite fictional women written to date.

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Great point

Post  checkingoutthisthread on Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:31 am

I really enjoyed reading this thread. I was wondering what kept me interested in Sul's and Yoo Jung's relationship and I think the last post really captured a lot of what makes me keep being interested in what happens to this couple. Thank you!

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ROFL...

Post  elvensong on Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:53 pm

Thank you, Checking... I honestly only started with a single point in mind, then it got me thinking of about half a million more cool things about those two and why it works between them when it may not seem like it should from the outside... and, well, I call myself the girl who cannot use two words where twenty will do. Seems I was right about that. Razz

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Great Discussion

Post  HajarJackoub on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:04 am

That's really interesting, thanks for summing this up & sharing your thoughts Smile

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Fun times

Post  elvensong on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:45 pm

Thanks! It was fun to get the opinions of people who are enjoying this series as much as I am, and it was also fun to sit down and really think about what we've been reading. I find CITT so multi-layered and quite realistic in terms of the different ways people can think and be. Many authors I've read really only grasp the thought patterns of one or two 'types' but Soonkkie really has such a variety of people and even the smaller parts are fully developed individuals to my eye, it's just facinating to read this series.

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Adding to Jung and Sul's relationship

Post  fayrenth on Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:52 pm

Great analysis elvensong!
I'n lieu of similarities, you'll notice Sul and Jung will both offer to dissuade a situation in order to keep their environment peaceful. The difference is, Sul mostly does it out of sincerity because she doesn't want people to fight, but Jung does it out of convenience. They both are nice to everyone on the surface, but Sul is more genuine. Jung brought it up that she is almost too nice. She doesn't believe the worst of someone at first(excluding Jung last year) but Jung does. They both tend to look down on people with, as Jollies mentioned, contempt. Sul's mask isn't really a mask, she just happens to push her real feelings deep down for the sake of optimism. Jung pushes everything down and puts on a smile until he can get revenge.
I think they are very different, but have one huge similarity and it's the fact they put their true feelings into a little box. They both can see through people. This is what I think Jung meant when he said they were similar.
On the flip side, no doubt that Jung is a little twisted. He goes for revenge rather than understanding. He, like Sul, can see through people but does not comprehend on a empathetic level nor does he try to. For a minute there I thought he was a sociopath, but really it seems unlike every other kid he was never taught to empathize. Im sure his parents loved him too, but instead of facing the fact their boy was manipulative they ignored it and tried to remedy it with the wrong solution, i.e, giving him friends when he didn't know how to be close to someone properly. Jung also tends to think of things in very black and white circumstances. He's not a bad person though.
I think Jung and Sul can persevere as long as they communicate. That's another great thing Sul gives Jung is communication. Not just small talk, but she calls him out on his BS. She doesn't try to manipulate him, and unlike his father, ignore his issues and accommodate him. For the most part, she doesn't allow him to simply say a few nice words and the problems gone. (It's also important to note that Sul is always grabbing his hand or clothes, each time it's like she's saying that she won't let go.) She is steadily meeting his issues head on.
Reciprocally, Jung pushes Sul to look out for herself. He's making her realize that she has to use her kindness wisely. He's protective of her and helps her when she needs it.

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Fayrenth

Post  elvensong on Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:38 am

I like your comments, Fayrenth... I think you are right. Watching her, I suspect that the reason that Sul pushes down her feelings tends to be a lack of self confidence in her own judgement. JUNG certainly has few doubts about HIS judgements lol! In any case, it takes people PROVING to Sul that they are jerks for her to employ her own defenses. Though I am not sure defenses is completely the right word. With Nam Joo Yeon and now with Oh Young Gon she IS willing to go on the offensive. As well as that jerk dude at the English Tutoring Center last summer... LOVED LOVED LOVED that episode Very Happy.

And also, Jung has caught his fair share of this from her when she's slapped him down over some BS. She wasn't cruel about it, but she sure didn't take it laying down. I really don't think the road ahead is going to be very easy unless Jung really does face the fact that their first year together at Collage really does count in their relationship and is best sorted out.

Sul would be fair to him about it too. He seems to not really know that yet though. I don't think he knows many people who HAVE been willing to be fair about that shadow side of his. She privately acknowledges that she wasn't exactly at HER best back then either. At once point confessing to the audience that she kept saying 'Hi' to him mainly out of spite lol. (GO SUL!) But, again, I don't think Jung is familiar with people who are fair to that full personality of his, revenge games and all. It would take an enormous act of faith for him to really leap into the unknown for her.

On the other hand, as much as she does grab him in order to keep hold of him... he's got an even bigger grip on her, I think. He needs her in a way that she only 'wants' him. She is growing closer to the 'need you, Jung' thing as time goes on, but I think he is already there.

It would be the wiser choice in my opinion, if he were willing to address that first year, because even now he is a very mysterious creature for her and she often does not seem to know what to make of him. She doesn't always know where the boundries are, nor what to expect when she accidentally crosses them. That's a hard relationship to navigate, and until he get's the notion that she needs help with that (as in, some honest to goodness honesty) she is going to continue walking into invisible walls and stepping on social landmines laid out for her by him in the past like Nam Joo Yeon and Oh Young Gon. Just telling her to be watchful and careful isn't quite enough, stratigically speaking, to protect her from the enemies who will want to use her to get back at him, or who are jealous of their relationship.

Jung, on the other hand, HAS been far more willing to admit that his opinion of her was pretty bad in the beginning, while she still has not been able to put that in words... so they both have hurdles to overcome. I am enjoying watching them learn and grow.

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Post  fayrenth on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:51 am

Agreed, they definitely have to work out that year. They've both acknowledged it on an internal level why they were that way but never to each other. Sure, they've talked about how much they didn't like each other,but never really laid down why. I think it's crucial too, because it's something that nags Sul. Because her opinion of him was so low that year, him suddenly being nice to her + what she's just figured out his personality (manipulative, holds grudges) she can't shake the feeling he has an ulterior motive sometimes.
Yeah, he definitely needs her. I find it endearing that he is afraid of losing her. I think he's waiting to see if she gives up on him, but Sul's not that kind of person so I doubt.

And I forgot to add: remember when he was explaining the whole scholarship shebang and said that was because he did it for her? But Sul had to set him straight, that he did it wholly for some sort of personal satisfaction? In the end it was "resolved" but Jung thinks Sul doesn't understand him. That's not the case. She doesn't understand him completely because he won't reveal himself completely, but what she does know she either understands or tries to (like you said, she's the only one who's doing this. In So rejects him, his father ignores it, his peers don't see it, "honey" is afraid of it)
Personally, I don't think Jung understands himself and that's a problem too. He thinks everything is X, Y, and Z when it's really XDG603&*((DGSNL, Laughing .

It's only been 2-4 months in the relationship, so I give them credit where credit is due. I love watching them grow as well.

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Fayrenth again ;)

Post  elvensong on Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:31 pm

Well said, on all points. I agree with you completely. You've mentioned some things that I knew but never put into words. I also thought Sul was dead right when Jung tried to claim the scholarship was 'for her' when really is was totally for himself. It IS nice to have someone with Jung's power and influence having your back, but he seriously didn't know at that point if the new impression she was making on him was accurate at all. He just wanted a chance to find out.

Well, he did. And now, yes, I am 100% sure he would do it for her with no regard for his own benefit. Back then, though, they'd never really spoken and it was for his own curiousity that he did it. I'm glad she called him on that issue, and hope she continues to bring in a good dose of reality for him. It's prolly like medicine for the soul for a guy who's inherited wealth and social standing makes most of the people around him behave in false ways... both to the 'positive' attitudes they fake, or the 'negative' attitudes they falsely indulge.

Speaking of which, can you imagine that jerk Sang Chul saying that Jung is always showing off his watch? Jung has never once brought attention to it. Sang Chul always asks. I think Sang Chul just likes to live vicariously though Jung's belongings. He's unlikely ever to build up much of a nest egg himself, given how carefree and clueless he can be. And that bit about Jung 'stealing' Ah Young away from him when 1) Sang Chump (his new nick name) never HAD Ah Young and 2) All Jung ever had to do with her was to stand next to her (AND SUL!!!!! Silly Chump, pay attention!) after Ah Young had rejected the classless, pushy guy.

And that's the level of his gratitude after Jung basically paid for the dude's food and alcohol over the course of years. Not to mention all the class notes he's loaned Sang Chump-Ssi, a more valuable gift in the long run, surely. Such petty jealousies from people who have done nothing but benefit from his generousity but who secretly resented him for it. Really infuriating. I would seriously not love living surrounded by people like that. Jung handles it much better than I suspect I would. lol


Last edited by elvensong on Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  fayrenth on Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:05 pm

Yeah, the thing with Sang Chump is a cold reality for Jung. It's a two sided coin:
On one hand, I feel bad for Jung because mostly all of the people who've come to him are there to gain something other than friendship. And when things don't turn out the way they want it to, they start demonizing him. Jung doesn't show off, but they are envious. It seems to bother Jung when they react that way to him, and those people have to be careful to not completely piss him off. If Sul didn't warn Jung to not take any action agianst Young Gon, the dude would probably be in a really bad situation right about now. (Which reminds me, Young Gon needs to chill before Jung does give him a bad situation. Seriously, when Sul finds out Young Gon has been blackmailing Eun Taek she's gonna be livid.)
On the other hand, the things Jung does for people are not genuine. In fact, he knows they're leechers and looks down on them for it. What do you expect? They were never your friends, they were your social investments.
I honestly think the reason why Bek In Ho(my fav) is the closest Jung has ever had to a friend, is because In Ho didn't "leech" when Jung's father took them in. When they were younger, it seems In Ho didn't want to ask for anything. And he stopped living off on them of his own volition after the incident with the hand, I believe. Jung seems to be pissed at In Ho for 1) giving up on him as a friend(easily blaming him and despising him), and 2) wasting his potential. Also, the victim mentality irritates him too. Probably why he took to Sul. Seeing her go through her own issues but she doesn't sit there and blame people just to hold on to it.

Speaking of Sul, I loved her mini arc with her friends from community service and prep school. Sometimes it's up to you to hold on to your friendships, you can't let life sit there and decide for you. Sometimes friendships are meant to be shortlived, but you cherish it all the same. It's a hard lesson to learn when you're older.

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Fayrenth, luv that name ;)

Post  elvensong on Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:19 pm

Again, I agree with all points listed. lol

Though I did think Jung was at least surprised when Sang Chul turned on him like that.

I think you clarified for me a bit more about the extent to which Jung has lived in and acclimated to a world where everyone is a 'Gimme gimme gimme!' person. It does make Sul stand out from the crowd even more than I had originally thought. Again, hard to blame Jung for not questioning his ongoing reality, he's never seen anything else. And credit goes to him for recognizing the difference and valuing it when Sul came along.

One thing that I do think Jung does that let's people demonize him more than he deserves is when he does the mysterious guy thing. Sul knows him best, and even she is confused as heck. I suspect it's pretty general that when you present a blank canvas to the world, each person is going to draw what s/he most desires or fears on it. Sang Chul DOES seem to kinda expect to be looked down on. Nam Joo Yeon was looking for a prince who 'matched' her overblown high opinion of herself. Jung just never gave enough of himself away to make her suspect he was his own man.

Remember how she treated the homeless people, while Jung, in vivid contrast had compassion for them and tried to get the old lady out of the guards way in case she got into trouble. Pity her mind was so far gone she coulndn't quite compute. Nam Joo Yeon totally looked down on her and even attempted to get the woman in trouble. Class cannot be bought, as Nam Joo Yeon proved frequently. And to top off the contrast between Jung and the rest, even the truest loyal collage friend Jung has ran him down (somewhat jokingly) for the money he gave the woman because he wanted Jung to spend money on the students! Sheesh!

Jung has his faults, but you cannot fault him in that instance, while all his hanger-ons really did deserve to be looked down upon for the way they so gleefully looked down on and dismissed the less fortunate. Generally, well, they are all pretty human... some more than others... but there are no full-on saints running around in CITT. I've never met one myself so I think that being 'real' about people makes for a more entertaining story to read. Very Happy

Bek In Ho is super cool, and getting cooler. I do believe he has a victim menality that is gradually shifting off his back (hopefully anyway), and I do believe that Jung is prolly innocent of the hand incident (My personal ongoing theory is the sister, In Ha was so jealous she did a rare bit of intriguing and pushed the other boys in that direction), and if innocent and truly believing that In Ho WAS a rare true friend, the betrayal at being blamed by all and disbelieved by his father on top of it... well, remember when I originally mentioned he had to have been very lonely as a child? Multiply that by 100 and maybe we'd be getting close to a persons isolation at that moment. So I definitely agree with you on that point.

I think that Jung really loved the music In Ho created... he still listens to classical music as he drives. I suspect the person who lost almost as much as In Ho had with all that went on in that incident was Jung. In Ha sure didn't care, in fact she reveled in it... just loooooooved that the 'talent' she couldn't replicate in art was denied to In Ho musically. "Bwahahaha, take THAT stupid brother of mine!" (or a general attitude to that effect lol)

Jung's father felt guilt over his son's alleged behavior, but I don't think he was as invested in that talent and person that In Ho was. Mainly he wanted the Bek's to be the friends he feared his son could never make on his own, but didn't really seem to have much to do with them other than pay out money and listen to In Ha whine (then dance to her bidding by MAKING Jung have contact with that poisonous snake). Why wouldn't papa give the gifts he had purchased for them directly rather than route it though Jung if he actually cared for them as something other than a social crutch for his son? (a crutch made out of lead in In Ha's case Razz Ebil blood-sucking woman that she is) No offence to papa, but ultimately his motivations strike me as being colder than Jung's rep with his detractors by a fair distance.

In Ho did take the stance of what I can only think of as a 'noble savage' after his hand was broken. All his plans in ruins and with nothing to even hope for as a backup, he still prefered to stand on his own two feet. Very noble... endless fights and rough speech... a little bit of the savage is definitely a part of his makeup lol. But that's not neccessarily a bad thing. I think it gave him the backbone to fight the impossible fight rather than become a leech like his sister.

Does anyone else think that In Ho is kinda bonding with the whole Hong family as a substitute for the ones he's lost? And In Ho has lost more than one family. Beginning with Sul as a sister he's actually be proud of (contrasted to the sister he actually got *sigh*) rather than a romantic interest? I giggle every time Jung has a jealousy fit over him, since it seems like the notion would gross out both Sul and In Ho. But, maybe I am wrong on that. I am sure if there is something more there in potential it will be shown to us, if not to Jung.

I'm with you on the Sul/friendship mini-arc over the summer break. I have long had trouble when friends are temporary rather than long term... but eventually I came to think of friendships falling into two general categories... linear and planer friendships if you map them out in the way that time flows. The planer ones can have a huge and valuable impact, but don't last for whatever version of 'long time' you personally use, while the linear friendships go on and on, and are beloved just for that alone.

Unless it's a toxic friendship, in which case the longer it goes the more it makes you want to weep tears of blood lol.

Anyway, once I started thinking like that I learned to value the short term friends for the important figures they were. And I am very glad that I can too. Very Happy

Sul is lucky to be around people who are ready to challenge her tendancy to be passive, and I think the impression is made so vividly on her that it will be a lasting one. In Ho is a huge part of that, which alone is a great reason not to try to get in the way of that friendship, and trust her sense of right and wrong instead.

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love this discussion,

Post  fayrenth on Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:42 pm

See, now you've explained what I was thinking, haha.
Jung is a blank canvas. He lets people believe what they want as long as it doesn't inconvenience him. Like Nam Joo Yeon. He was her prince until she started to get nasty towards Sul. By the way, I'm so glad Sul didn't accept her fake apology. And it wasn't to be spiteful, Nam Joo Yeon just wasn't sincere.

Lol, I honestly don't get upset with Jung when he looks down on most of these people. He can't empathize but he can sympathize on some level. So far, Nam Joo Yeon, In Sa, Min Soo, Sang Chul and all the others vainly vying for his attention to not score points with me either. I honestly don't think he took it too far when he beat the crap out of the pervert psycho, but that's my personal threshold for these situations coming into play. Even in real life. I would have told Jung to chill only out so he doesn't get lost in his twisted side. Still may have let that one slide, lol.
I'm not saying Jung's an innately good person, but he isn't bad either.

Bek In Ho though, I think he's genuinely nice (remember how all the kids loved him?and people gravitate to him) and he's more head on like Sul.
And I agree on all your points about him too. Excuse my language but that b_tch of a sister he has probably did have something to do with his hand. None of the characters are perfect and some don't come close to being considered "good" but she's the most despicable of this entire series. Listens to no one, completely and utterly selfish, green with envy, can not do for herself, she doesn't bother to look out for her brother though he's done what he could for her, she picks fights for petty reasons and was about to beat a girl half to death for being the girlfriend of someone who has never had any interest in her romantically. I am as disgusted and done with her as Jung is.

But there's hope for my Bek In Ho. Agreed, the Hung's are pretty his new family now! His victim mentality is shedding the more he's around them, and Sul is a great influence on him like she is for Jung. Especially when she called him out on his own issues, "like dude you have problems too". I think In Ho and Sul have a more brother and sister relationship as well, but I predict In Ho will think he likes her romantically in the future. Hopefully that bug is stomped on promptly, and hopefully it doesn't end in a broken friendship. That would break my heart.

And you put it really well, that In Ho's challenges her to not be passive. Jung realized that forbidding the friendship will end up being more damaging than remedying.

I think In So and In Sa were initially a responsibility to Jung's father. Because he had a good friendship with their grandfather, then after seeing the abuse he thought he could help them and also Jung. He more so forced a relationship. Good and Bad. Good because of In Ho. Bad because of that piece of work In Ha is. I know I seem a bit too venomous, but I can't stand characters like her. I know she was insecure and spoiled but she didn't mature in any way. None.

Anyway, I think In So and In Sa were originally considered his responsibility and then after high school became an obligation because of moreguilt. Couldn't just let his friends grandchildren go fend for themselves, and now his son has allegedly taken away one of their futures.
Jung and his father's relationship is strained, so all Jung can see is how hard he works do be the best yet his father forgives so much from a vagrant and a brat and even more importantly, he doesn't expect anything from them like he does Jung. Jung had to work, but his father was willing to give In Ha a job if she got a certificate. That sucks, and it is isolating like you said. I don't know if you have siblings and if you're the oldest, but it sucks to work so hard yet your siblings get passes for being lazy and inconsiderate. You love them, but you start to feel like you're on your own. You don't want to burden them with your feelings, but it slowly eats at you. I know exactly how Jung and Sul feel.

In lieu of that, did you think Jung's father's advice about being "perfect" was condescending or sincere? I mean, does Jung really think he's perfect?



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Loving this convo too ;)

Post  elvensong on Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:20 pm

fayrenth wrote:

...did you think Jung's father's advice about being "perfect" was condescending or sincere? I mean, does Jung really think he's perfect?



I about blew my top at that moment. I mean, for Jung, nothing has ever gone as his deepest hopes would have begged. His relationship with his father being the biggest loser on the list of failed hopes. His childhood hope was to have his father's trust. His high school hope was for In Ho to be his friend and In Ha to finally stop with the romance crap and just settle for being his Noona. In collage, he is already jaded by subtle and more obvious betrayals and knows all too well WHY people approach him... all he would idealy want there is to have a few true friends. Not be first in grades, he can pass on that, Razz since we know he did do just that and for a relatively weak reason (He hardly knew Sul then, just wished to). Had he been 'perfect' then surely more than these multiple failures would have been Jung's lot, right?

Now he is finding that the sweet smooth relationship with the one person he's found who knows him pretty well yet won't abandon him is going to take some work and have to navigate some hard bumps. Neither Sul nor he have given up on it by a long shot, but these surprises are like a bomb in the first few days after they go off. You get over them with time, but it does TAKE time, and I'm glad Sul told him so... and that he is willing to give her that needed time.

He really did step in it too... stratigically as much as anything. Maybe my brain is a bit weird, but the way I see it, just giving her a warning that she should watch herself, there's more enemies around you than I thought isn't quite as effective as say... "You remember how I told you my impression of you improved? I owe you a huge appology for this, but Oh Young Gon got some textual encouragement from me back before I matured enough to know better than to do that to a girl, and among all girls I hate to think of you dealing with that sort of thing most, Sul.

I'm just saying that the news was unlikely to be a closely held secret by the old friend he shuffled off so carelessly, and it would have come from him much more caringly. I mean, did you see Young Gon's face as she started to doubt? He absolutely fed off of that moment. He might have nearly been plucked bald by her, but to that little evil twerp it was obviously worth it.

Going back to In Ha and the cruddy character she is... have you noticed how much she is like that hateful aunt she despises? She DID have a moment of true courage and nobility when she defied everyone and everything and asked Jung's father to protect the kids from that woman's abuse. After that, she best of her just died off until there's no trace left. She could have been so much more if only the authority in her life had challenged her vices and made that challenge stick.

And what was up with Jung not allowing Sul to hear about the attack on her little immitation Min Soo (that's what you get for wearing weird pants! lol), and then not taking In Ho's advice to protect Sul from In Ha?

I expect that to play out in very unexpected ways, given Sul's personality and In Ha's ability to be oblivious to any threat but the one she herself poses. We'll see. But on those two points I think Jung is nuts.

I still love him together with Sul though, provided he puts on his learning cap.

P.S. I am glad Sul called Nam's appology out for the insincere excuse it was as well. The stuck up wench totally deserves to be banished to a new world where she is unlikely to find the fan club she has always had back home. At least I HOPE the USA notices her entitled little butt and kicks it soundly until she grows up a bit. Her stunts were dangerous. I mean, did you catch the bit where Sul challenges her on everything including the laxative, and Nam just says, Oh you EVIL person, switching it back to ME!!!!!.

Now THERE'S hypocrysy for you, Oh Young Gon, if you needed an example Razz

P.P.S. You didn't sound too venomous at all regarding In Ha. You sounded like you knew what you were talking about!

Last post script, I promise... I am an only child, but I have had some (many) experiences such as you describe. When you are the helping introverted sort you get overlooked a lot. I am far less shy now, but I do remember quietly giving it all I had while brats ran around and created chaos, but charmed their way into a lot of good attention anyway. *shrug* Adults, sheesh! Sucks, no?

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Here's hoping Sul curve stomps In Ha's spoiled butt

Post  fayrenth on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:22 pm


Yeah, Jung's gotta learn that saying the "right" thing is not always the "pacifying" thing. Sul is also not a dog, which she established early on, that he can command to just do something because he said so. Jung isn't trying to actively keep secrets, but's he's spouting this "forget the past" nonsense. He want's to bury it when it can't be buried, as he's beginning to learn.

In Ha needed someone to recognize the negative parts of her personality like Jung did. The difference between them is In Ha didn't mature in any aspect. It's sad, but no excuse. Jung doesn't get an excuse either, but he's not incredibly rotten. lol, and he's going somewhere in life with his own capabilities. He may not want to run a company or work for one, but I doubt he'll be living off someone else much longer.

I think he didn't tell Sul about In Ha because he generally doesn't want to talk about her and it's quite possible that it's slipped his mind. Either way, I hope Sul gives In Ha a run for her money (not that she has any). I'm giving Sul the benefit of the doubt that she won't jump to conclusions about In Ha just because In Ha's pretty and they're, ahem, "close". Especially since she was more upset that he was basically playing with her life, with those text to Young Gon, than In Ha answering phone. At least that's how I interpreted it.

Right now, I'm more concerned about the problems Min Soo will cause in the future, and the crap Young Gon is starting than In Ha.


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Here's to In Ha's social demise! *clink*

Post  elvensong on Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:42 pm

Indeed, if Jung really does love someone, he's gotta be willing to bear a bit of noise and say the right thing. Peace does not always lead to peace. Ignoring a problem can garuntee havoc. Sometimes a little bit in the beginning prevents a whole lot later, and thus wisdom is born Razz.

At least that's the one chunk of wisdom that Jung needs to learn most immediately.

After all, SUL didn't make this happen. He doesn't want to argue about Young Gon or In Ha? Then find an answer WITH SUL before the bomb goes off. Imagine the sense of power she would have felt if that twerp had tried to horrif-text her about the past... and she'd already known more about it than he did, and had resolved it between herself and Jung.

Same with In Ha. Granted, the woman is someone who no one wants to think too much about, but Sul is wandering around in the dark. Jung sure was clear that he had wanted to know that In Ho was working at the place she learned English from, even though her path and In Ho's didn't really cross much.

In Ho DID recognize his sister's futility and self-defeating vices during their teens... and he did call her on it... but did it so meanly it was easy for her to just tune him out and pretend he was useless. That's another reason I suspect her in the crippled hand incident. She really is an unredeemable pill.

Jung might have had enough pull with her to get somewhere if he'd been willing to SAY stuff, but he didn't and she had no one else she would listen to except for him. Maybe that's another incident of the 'blank canvas' effect we talked about... she imagined he would grow up to be her (slightly younger) sugar daddy even though he had told her clearly he wasn't interested. I remember Jung scolding Sul early on in their friendship phase over flipping someone the bird... In Ha, as she is or even much improved never stood a chance. Those two just don't add up. He'd never associate himself with a woman who was as relentlessly crass as she is.

Jung and In Ho both are willing to undertake adult roles in the world, as is Sul. There's no doubt that they have a superior grasp of human responsibility that In Ha simply rejects out of hand. ALWAYS wanting someone to buy her everything that isn't nailed down. Ugh ugh ugh. She even tops Nam Joo Yeon for entitled attitudes.

And that isn't easy to do!

I don't think In Ha will become a big threat for a while yet. Though she certainly has a role to play from now on. I peeked ahead at the artwork because I want to know what happens next so much Razz, even though I couldn't read the writing. (MAN I wish I could read Korean!) And Min Soo and Young Gon are definitely the main players coming up, to my eye.

I am pretty darn sure that In Ha WILL have her evil day, though I cannot prove it, and In Ho will have ample reason to say to Jung, I TOLD YOU THIS WAS COMING!!!

So frustrating to be the brother of such a woman. You can't help but feel for the poor guy due to his infamously bad relatives, excepting his good and respectable grandfather, of course.

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Re: Jung and Sul dynamics

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