In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

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In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  fishsauce on Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:32 am

Out of curiosity, who do you think is the better, healthier partner for Sul?
I love Sul. I can honestly say that she is one of the few rare heroines that doesn't want to make me tear my hair out. She is hard working, smart, independent, dedicated, sincere and knows when to stand up for her self. So I REALLY want things to work out for her in the end. Poor girl deserves it.
Between the cold, calculating and manipulative Jung and brash, hot headed and prone to violent In ho, just who is genuinely capable of bringing Sul happiness? Or is she better off without both of them?
I wonder, will we even get an actual love triangle in the future? Because as of right now In Ho still only regards her as a friend, even though surely but slowly he is growing conscious of her. I'm really hoping there will be a season 4 so In Ho can continue to develop more feelings toward Sul, into something truly solid and romantic for me to consider it a love triangle.


Last edited by fishsauce on Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Ixis on Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:32 am

I agree -- I adore Sul!! ヾ(◜▿‾ 三 ‾▿◝)ノ And I, too, really want her to find happiness, or, at the very least, get a break... orz

As for who can bring her that, at this point I really don't know. She certainly gets along with both of them, but on the other hand due to both of their underlying character flaws they might both be either detrimental to her in the long run, or, at the very least, put more stress upon her. Not that every relationship is a breeze without any issues, but there are definitely some that are more trouble than they're worth.

I think in terms of what they can "do" for her Jung might be the better choice because Sul has pretty much always had to look out for herself and hasn't had anyone she could really depend on, and as we've seen he's done quite a bit for her and tried to be there for her as much as possible, and thus helped to alleviate some of her stress. I don't just mean in the sense "LOL JUNG CAN BAIL HER OUT" but by doing that he's also allowed her to become more relaxed and realize that she can rely on others, as well as that it's good to open up to others even if nothing gets solved. While Jung definitely has some issues, he puts Sul first as much as possible which is always an important thing in a relationship.

As for In Ho, since he's so different from Sul -- self involved and selfish -- he could also 'teach' her to be more selfish instead of self sacrificing, but on the other hand, he's, indeed, self involved and selfish and especially due to him being preoccupied with the issue of his hands I don't think he'd really be good relationship material at the moment or emotionally available to be there for her.
As for after his issues are cleared up... who knows? We've seen some of him beforehand, but not enough to tell what sort of guy he'd be in a relationship.

Until they deal with or overcome their issues, either by themselves or with the help of someone else, at present I don't think either of them are a good/healthy match. However, I think that their relationships as they stand are also important and could help them to overcome these things (as they've already shown to be doing -- and, indeed, since the theme is relationships with people I think only through their relationships will they change) so I also don't know if I can say if she'd be better off without them. Though it's also possible that she ends up with neither of them and with someone else. Though, it's also important to factor in affection -- Sul does seem to be interested in Jung and there are a lot of couples whose issues become unimportant when compared to their feelings for each other.

As for personal preference of who I want her to end up with... whoever she's with at the moment. Hahaha
I love all three characters and her interactions with both of them, and I think both couples are really cute (OTL;Wink but I think that Jung/Sul is really interesting and different, and that Jung needs Sul (or anyone, to understand him) more than In Ho needs someone. I also think if Jung lost Sul it'd be dangerous for the entire CITT universe;;;;

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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Doonge on Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:22 am

I also think if Jung lost Sul it'd be dangerous for the entire CITT universe;;;;
Or maybe Jung would become a soulless groundmat and listen to mushy and soppy love song all day, crying softly in his bed and making eeries sounds echoing the songs ("huuuh", ""wuuUUuh 'uv yuuuu")...
Then at some song heights, he would look at the sky with an imploring/interrogating gaze and utter "whyyyyyy uuuuu"...

Sorry, I'm not serious, just imagining ^^
(that would crack me up).
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  geeuleun on Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:22 pm

[quote="Doonge"]
"whyyyyyy uuuuu"...

Sorry, I'm not serious, just imagining ^^
(that would crack me up).

haha just imagine his face when crying.. oh no i just did it's uber sad , i just want a fairytale ending! Jung gets cured of his mental instability, Sul gets an awesome job and becomes the president of the world and In Ho marries me hehe
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  geeuleun on Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:38 pm

Ixis wrote:

As for In Ho, since he's so different from Sul -- self involved and selfish --

Do you really feel that InHo is selfinvolved? Maybe he is hung up on his past problems but that doesn't make him selfish. I think he is emphatetic and aware of what other people are feeling, that quality in a person is very rare. Sul is not so altruistic , she might not be greedy but she goes after what she needs.. and i feel like she is distant sometimes and avoids getting in too deep so can Jung really be the best partner for her. She is brave and smart, however she needs to open up and let out her frustrations and InHo can really make her feel relaxed. He might not be very reliable, so i say keep them noth! I love her personality she is one heck of a character she deserves the best. i love how neutral she can stay. This is just my response to what i have seen, i just wanted to hm tell you how i feel about InHo's character.
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Ixis on Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:39 am

@Doonge

HAHAHAHAHHA yes, oh god.

@geeuleun

In Ho is self involved as can be seen by the fact that he can't even bother to remember people's names or take their feelings into account... leading piano boy to snap. OTL Instead of doing something about his fingers, he instead chooses to play the victim and feel sorry for himself, and not only that, he's so stuck on himself and his past he doesn't bother getting a proper job and continues to leech off Jung's dad as well as others, to the extent he has to move around due to all of the trouble he causes. He loses his jobs because he doesn't take them seriously, which is another point toward his selfishness -- he doesn't do what's expected but instead acts how he wants, and, as seen with Sul's parents' shop, he's constantly distracted because he's lost in his own thoughts (about himself).
I'm not saying that he's incapable of caring for others -- he did get the notes for Sul after he caused hers to be ruined, and he went to help her out when she was in the alley way and during school. But off the top of my head those are the only times when he's acted for someone else. Most of his time and thoughts are spent thinking about himself in the past, rather than worry or concern for others or his relationships with others.
What really made this stand out was that poor Sul, who had been rushing around all over the place after getting harassing text messages (that were only to mooch food/money off her and nothing important anyway), finally finds him, and then he rushes right past her because he's so concerned about himself that, well, too bad, Sul! OTL

But I'm not trying to beat down on In Ho -- I like him a lot, I just don't think (at present) he's a good match for Sul beyond friends.

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yield, I agree with you Ixis

Post  geeuleun on Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:21 pm

He may not be the best match for Sul but he is a better person than you give him credit for. And as friends he will be a better asset to Sul.
I might be mistaken but to my knowledge he isn't the sibling that is sucking money from the sugar daddy. He cannot be receiving any financial support from Jung's dad. The act of him leeching off is harmless haha it's totally cute when he lures people into buying him meals, it's a thrifty tactics wish I could score a free meal like that.
people make bad choices and when you lose something important they are vulnerable and it might have been a long time ago but a person can only be so strong. Losing his ability doesn't give him the right to be jobless or victimizing himself or any of the loud ruckus he creates but I am sure it can justify to it's bitterness and fear. The reason he hasn't found a job maybe because he is lazy and lacking any seriousness but on the other hand it maybe because he is afraid he might never be good enough or maybe he just wants to blame everything on Jung and sit back waste his life away. Not remembering people's name is not a crime, he may gentle and sweet or charming as male protagonist ought to be but he is innocuous. He tried to communicate with the high school piano kid but that kid had already shut him off so no matter how clean the water on the bucket is, if the cloth is already colored black it won't turn white.
InHo is a nomad, he was a wanderer but not so much now in the beginning he was only going to stay there for a month then he decided to stay longer he was interested by Sul. At first it might have been for the wrong reason, but i am sure he felt different soon enough to realize how amazing and special Sul is and he stayed even if his life was in danger and the reason why he left the coaching job was because he didn't want his lie to harm the employer and he may not he selfless as other mighty humans but not all he has done is wrong. About his misdemeanors and frequent slip ups what can i say old habits die hard, he never had anyone monitor him or care for him or stick up for him.
Sul was looking for those lost boys, poor Sul he had a flashback of his horrible past how inconvenient for that to happen she wasted her precious time. How selfish of him to have feelings, he purposely orchestrated the entire event to shove her away so he can contemplate on his terrible sexy self.
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Ixis on Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:06 am

I'm really not saying he's a bad person. Just self-involved.

He's still receiving support from Jung's dad, although not as much as his sister. As for the meal thing, while I find it funny, being poor/a leech isn't really seen as a good trait, and most people find it annoying when people are constantly essentially bumming money off you. It'd be one thing if he had money, but it's because he DOESN'T have money, that is to say, he doesn't have a job, which is, again, because he's self-involved and can't keep one. Even more, the fact that he doesn't care that he's bothering people for food is more proof of his being self-involved.

Indeed, losing his ability and dream is a serious thing and I understand why it's holding him back, and it isn't something you can just brush off, but on the other hand, as I said, instead of doing something about it he'd rather blame Jung and be the victim.

I'm not saying not remembering people's name is a crime. ^^; It's more like, he doesn't concern himself with others and can't be bothered to remember their names -- and indeed even seems to look down on them by referring to them as "that thing" rather than "that guy/person" lol. Indeed, the piano kid was already poisoned against him, however, In Ho's attitude around him and lack of awareness REALLY didn't help the situation. He said what he wanted and didn't care about anyone else -- that's essentially In Ho's character -- selfish/self-involved.

He only became a nomad because he was running from his problems metaphorically and literally. I'm not talking about him leaving the job at the school, I'm talking about the job he was at at the beginning of the series where he had pissed off the employer so much that he hunted him down to get revenge. Σ(゜ロ゜Wink And even his "friend" was glad he was gone. In Ho had Jung's dad to care for him, so I'm not sure what you mean =w=??

In Ho constantly has flash backs of his past. You might say that's all he ever thinks about (because... it is). He was just trying to run away from the teacher so he didn't have to talk to him, which was, again, childish and running away from the problem. I didn't say he orchestrated it, however, the fact that he knew she was looking for him (due to HIM contacting her... and not over anything important -- just to leech more food) and he ran past her so he didn't have to have a CONVERSATION is, yes, selfish and pathetic. Maybe if he was 10 years old, I could understand, but he's a grown up man. The least he could have done is grabbed her hand, but, again, he was so self-involved at that moment he didn't even "see" her. And, yes, poor Sul, she had to spend her free time running around the campus trying to find her idiot brother and friend who were harassing her into feeding them, lost her precious key chain, and was late for class and scolded.

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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  geeuleun on Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:55 pm

The reason the old employer hunted him down was becuase he um took what belonged to him, which was his wages and he helped out his old pal who in return betrayed him.

I would really like to know how you found out about him being supported by Jung's dad, thanks.
Isn't it worse if you try to not spend the money you have and just sponge off another even when you have money, and even if he doesn't have money to throw around he is generous once in awhile.

Financial support and care isn't the same thing, and the reason he got the half siblings under his roof is for his own interest of 'helping' Jung.

InHo doesn't even get much script time and may be he is immature but selfish and self absorbed, i will never think that.
Just having flash backs doesn't constitute to the person being self involved, there are many accounts of Sul and Jung having flashbacks too.

He bartered alot but people have to accept the good and bad sides in their friends. We all have different sort of friends the gossipy one, the motherly kind, the poet/writer, the singer/star, the fighter, the loli cute act, ok I guess this list can go on.. There will be no end to justifying one's actions. All I am saying He is Very Very different than any characters in a manghwa i have seen he seems real, human and he is doing the best he can which is getting better every day.

aaaaaaaaaaa i am sleepy, if anyone is selfish and self involved it's me.  cheers me before him

lastly sorry for the hint of sarcasm on the last sentences in my previous post,  Twisted Evil Hopefully we both get to see him turn into a beautiful butterfly Suspect
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Ixis on Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:45 am

I'm not saying that what In Ho did was wrong in regards to that, just that the fact that he causes troubles for those around him and then takes off is selfish because he's only looking out for his own interests. I don't know if you could really call it betrayal, though, because his friend didn't seem to consider him a friend/wanted him gone. They say that betrayal can only occur when there is trust between people. That said, he did tip off In Ho so while what he did was douchey in the end it didn't really matter.

I don't remember what chapter it's first mentioned in, but somewhat recently when Jung was on the phone with his father he mentioned that he needs to stop supporting them, and fairly recently when Jung was detailing the story to Sul he mentioned that both of them were being supported by his dad.

It's definitely worse when you do have money, but that doesn't make what he does perfectly fine, especially since he has the means/ability to make money. I think it's normal to get a meal from someone but generally people do it in turns -- you buy one meal, they buy the next, etc. Yeah, though it seems most of his money goes to support his low life sister... OTL

I'm not saying it's the same thing, but Jung's dad seems to be quite fond of them. We're shown him doting on them, and, especially, the fact that Jung's dad believed In Ho over him (and that In Ho would tell his dad about that seems to show they're pretty close?). Though he wanted them there to help Jung, I think he also felt in debt to their grandfather and also didn't want them to continue living in such a terrible situation... but, even if his means were purely selfish at the start it doesn't mean he also didn't feel genuine affection for them. From what we've seen Jung's dad seems to be a kind person.

I think In Ho's gotten a fair amount of script time. It's fine if you don't think so, but regardless, that's his personality. But it isn't necessarily a bad thing, so I'm not sure why you're taking offense. Everyone is selfish to some extent, and it's normal/healthy to be selfish. Selfishness, like most things, stems from the "need to survive". If you're hungry, and get food, you're being selfish. If you're hungry, and let someone else have the food instead, you're being selfless. However, even in that there's selfishness -- if you are happy/relieved someone else is eating, that is also a selfish feeling. There is pretty much no action that isn't selfish, really (even if you're forced to do something, you do it out of fear of being fired/hit/etc). Of course, when it goes too far it's considered bad, but sometimes it's actually a good thing. A lot of times selfish people end up going on to create awesome things or companies because that's what they want done, and they'll do anything to accomplish it. Of course, there are other types of selfishness that can hurt others. However, both of those weren't what I meant.
My point was that Sul is the type of person who is more selfless than selfish, and needs a person who is also selfless, or at least, someone who pays attention to her enough that they'd notice when she's putting too much on herself. Since In Ho is the type more to be worried about his own troubles and not consider others that much, he wouldn't be good in that sense. Granted, he has helped out Sul a couple times, and indeed it seems like he's becoming more aware of others. However, due to his past hanging over him, in the end, it's too strong and if it came down to it he'd probably put himself or his own troubles first. I think if Sul were more selfish then they'd be a good match, but Sul really puts a lot on herself and needs someone that considers her foremost.
Also, being too selfless, while beneficial for others, usually is harmful to the individual. Case in point: Sul. lol

Er... I'm not saying that having flashbacks makes him self-involved. I meant the content of the flashbacks. ^^;

I'm really not attacking In Ho, here. Like I said, I like him a lot. He's probably my favorite character after Eun Taek. I was only speaking in regards to how he wouldn't be a good romantic match for Sul due to his personality. Just like how Eun Taek also wouldn't be a good match for Sul just because... well... I just can't see that happening, even though they're really good friends. lol

He's a character with many faults and indeed, it makes him quite human and thus more interesting and easy to relate to/sympathize with. I think his "doesn't give a fxxx" attitude is hilarious and great, and it makes it all the more interesting when he actually does pay attention to others.
His shattered dream really damaged him a lot, and I totally feel for him every time. I think the main reason he ran away instead of trying to get rehabilitated is because he was afraid it wouldn't help, and so making it seem like he didn't want to do it would make it seem like his own "choice" rather than something he couldn't do anything about, and it would fit in with his non-nonchalant demeanor. Since he was always so carefree about it and just made it out to be something he was good at but didn't care about (and in general came off as a ~cool guy who doesn't care about anything~), he probably felt weird/embarrassed if he actually had to put effort into it and thus revealed he actually liked it). And then, there's the other thing about running away: if you don't know the answer, there's always the chance that either answer could be correct. He could cling to the fact that it was possible he might be able to play. If he tried rehabilitation and it didn't work, it's over, and there's nothing to cling to at all.

Everyone is selfish! \(★´−`)人(´▽`★)/

Not a problem; I think it came off like I was attacking him when that really wasn't my intent *w*;; Which, sorry if it did/does come off that way. Indeed, I look forward to his development, though I hope he generally stays the same... ( ・ω・)

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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Doonge on Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:57 am

Selfishness is not really a problem, depends if what you do is good for you (selfishness) AND for others (or neutral). Win-win actions.
When you start doing stuff for you that hurts others people, that's a problem, and that's what In Ho used to do: he engaged into fights to threaten people hospital fees (and police report) out of them.

I don't buy much into selflessness (except maybe for minor stuff -stuff that costs almost no effort and that is a one time thing- repeated selflessness becomes obligation), and I don't think Sul is particularly selfless.
The episode where we saw Jung's father giving a frame that Jung cherishes to a stranger boy, despite Jung opinion's, striked me as odd.

Jung's father is somebody who had anger issues when he was young, and he was "cured" by the grandfather. He has some amount of trust towards the grandfather, which is why he was perturbed when the grandfather told him about the alcohol incident. Starting there, he lost Jung's trust (what a stupid fuck), because Jung saw how his own father started to look at him, and the frame incident (and In Ho and In Ha?).
If you had such a kid, would you really believe it's a good idea to blatantly force "companionship" in his face? And when Jung's father took In Ho and In Ha under his protection, was it because he felt he owed to the grandfather, or was it because he wanted to help Jung?

Me I'm not really a Sul x In Ho shipper, because I think In Ho is somebody prone to bring problems. His "selfishness" (or lack of empathy), but moreso his brashness tends to bring animosity. He's the opposite of Jung, which is a master at navigating social sea (and hiding his self). In the beginning of the story, he tailed Sul just because he was plotting something against Jung. He is damaged and has to find low-wage jobs here and there, before being fired (Sul's family shop being an exception).
Sul is not rich, neither her family, and she has a lot of pressure going on. Does Sul need more problems?

Seeing that Jung is a bright kid (In Ho is thick-headed, he has a talent for music though), stimulating his emotional growth (by being a trustworthy girlfriend) is a good operation for Sul. I just see headaches if Sul's going the In Ho route. I think it's easier and more rewarding to open up Jung a bit than to tame In Ho a bit.

Plus, even if In Ho is to fall for Sul (which I'm not sure yet), she's just a nice girl from his point of view, whereas Sul is very important and unique to Jung. Jung is morel ikely to stick to Sul than In Ho is, in my opinion.
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Ixis on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:18 am

Sul bottles up her problems so as not to trouble others and takes a lot of problems onto herself. This is what I meant by selfless -- maybe the word isn't selfless, but self-sacrificing? Either way, what she does is usually not with her own best interests in mind but for others. I think the reason she's so hard on herself about her grades and studying isn't really for herself but because of her parents. She "has" to do it, not necessarily "wants" to do it.

The frame incident was definitely stupid. Actually, the whole handling of Jung's situation was stupid. "NO PROBLEM WITH MY BOY, NOPE!" but then got paranoid of him anyway and didn't get any help from the grandfather. I think Jung's father felt he could deal with it since he had been through it, but he obviously had no idea what he was doing. I think when he helped In Ho and In Ha it was for both reasons -- feeling in debt toward the grandfather and thinking that it would benefit Jung. Again, it didn't help Jung at all, but his father clearly had no idea how to deal with him in the first place though he thought he did.

Agreed. That's what I meant when I said the present In Ho. I don't know if it's his past problems that make him like this, though from what we've seen in the flashbacks he seemed pretty much the same. Essentially he'd need quite a bit of a personality change to not cause Sul a lot of strife.

I think to tame In Ho you'd have to be a demon or a saint. Sul is somewhere in between... though it's possible, I think she'd have to dedicate 100% of her time to it. ^^;;

Oh, yeah. Sul is really important and special to Jung and even if she outright hated him I don't really see him giving her up... OTL;;

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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  geeuleun on Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:28 pm

The threat InHo made about hospital bills and police, wasn't that to threaten the guy so they wouldn't bother him?

Sorry if i came off offended, i am not one to debate hence my defense argument just came off too defensive.....
I don't think Sul will have a long relationship with either of them, but things would definitely be invigorating if it becomes a love triangle. Although that was the idea I had when i first started reading this manhwa, the title made me think it was a love triangle and i just can't resist such stories..

All is well, that ends well. There is no denying to the fact how special Sul is, i could secretly be shipping Sul and Jung but that's not because InHo is bad, which he isn't- as most of us would agree on that.
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Doonge on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:43 pm

Some love triangle might reveal interesting, yeah =D

(but I fear for In Ho safety xD).
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Ixis on Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:59 am

I thought that it was implied that it was something that In Ho did a lot -- i.e. goading someone into a fight and then trying to get money from them. But I can't remember 100%, so... looks like it's time to read through it again (๑´▿`๑)♫

I also thought that this was supposed to be a love triangle. Well, mainly because of the comic's main image that had Sul between the two of them. I... actually keep expecting it to be, also. ALL BECAUSE OF THOSE IMAGES!!! (Since each season's main image has been the same "Sul between the two of them"... which, I realize might only symbolize the fact that she's caught between them and their fight/a new link between them forcing them to deal with each other/just the general drama of being caught up with these two and how the three interacting with each other has caused a lot of changes and developments for them... ahem)
I found it refreshing that it wasn't a love triangle, although it seems like it might be going that way (slowly) from In Ho's side. But considering the author has planned to end it this season... I don't know, it seems like In Ho won't ever reach the point of being strongly interested in her before the series' end unless it suddenly hits him, like at the end of the movie Clueless... (YEAH, CLUELESS IS MY EXAMPLE. (  ゚,_ゝ゚))

"(but I fear for In Ho safety xD)."
I already fear for him and he just talks to Sul... ( ´_ゝ`);;

I know that Jung is a bit weird, and furthermore doesn't like In Ho, but is it normal for guys in Korea to not "allow" or like their girlfriends to be friends with guys? Because if I were Sul I'd say "I'LL BE FRIENDS WITH WHO I WANT, BRO. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOUR ASS ON THE WAY OUT (ヽ `д´)┌┛★)`з゜)" And the fact that Sul hasn't really said that (umm, not that she has to say it exactly like that... lol) makes me think that it's kind of the norm in Korean society.

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so sad you said that this will be the last season..

Post  geeuleun on Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:09 am

Doonge wrote:Some love triangle might reveal interesting, yeah =D

(but I fear for In Ho safety xD).

I fear Sul's safety more, InHo is a big boy he can handle it plus he knows what Jung is capable of unlike Sul who is oblivious to his darker side which is much darker than she can anticipate. Imagine how it would feel if you didn't even know the person you are in love with, though i don't think she is in love with him yet but Sul has less dating experience than a middle school kid that is why I feel like her relationship with Sunbae will be earnest and serious even if she isn't madly in love.

And you are right Ixis, it is sort is common in korea for men to feel that way i speak from my vast knowledge hehe( from watching countless kdrama). However, it's Jung and he isn't exactly a normal korean male.
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  fishsauce on Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:46 pm

Wow I'm getting a lot of awesome and well written responses guys! Thanks. ^^
Ixis wrote:
I know that Jung is a bit weird, and furthermore doesn't like In Ho, but is it normal for guys in Korea to not "allow" or like their girlfriends to be friends with guys? Because if I were Sul I'd say "I'LL BE FRIENDS WITH WHO I WANT, BRO. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOUR ASS ON THE WAY OUT  (ヽ `д´)┌┛★)`з゜)" And the fact that Sul hasn't really said that (umm, not that she has to say it exactly like that... lol) makes me think that it's kind of the norm in Korean society.

Huh, well according to all the Korean dramas that I've watched, it does seem that way. xD
But I think in Jung's case, he was worried because there is bad blood between him and In ho. He probably thought that In Ho was approaching Sul with a hidden agenda, probably trying to get back at Jung.
Also there is the fact that Jung doesn't seem to mind that Sul is friends with Eun Taek.
P.s: I just figured how to put in a poll lol
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Ixis on Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:49 am

I don't think Jung would ever do anything to hurt Sul. Only MAYBE if something huge happened (like if she tried to leave) and he went full yandere -- "LET'S DIE TOGETHER, SUL!!!" kind of thing. Though I doubt that will happen;;;
In regards to there being a love triangle I don't think he'd do anything to hurt Sul but he might try to get In Ho out of the way. I mean, he's trying to do that already and he's only friends with her... *w*;;;

Indeed, In Ho does know what Jung is capable of but Jung is a scary bastard and even if you know it I don't know if it can necessarily protect you *A*;;; But Sul isn't completely oblivious to his darker side. She was able to discern it just from observing him, and, then, experienced a lot of it first hand during her first year back at college, which is why she was constantly questioning his motives when he was nice to her because she figured he was up to something.

RE: Jung's over protectiveness -- yeah, I kind of figured it was a bit of both. Indeed, he doesn't seem to mind she's friends with Eun Taek, but then, she never really brings him up, and when she's around him Bora is usually there too. And when she went on vacation with them, it was mentioned afterwards that she had asked if he was OK with her going... =w=;;;;;

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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  rupupo on Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:31 am

I am perplexed why anyone would think Jung is a suitable candidate for Sul or anyone at all. he's clearly manipulative and a sociopath. Inho is not nearly as selfish or self involved as Jung is in my opinion. He also hasn't been receiving financial help from the chairman? When Jung was speaking to his father about the siblings he mentioned them both but at that point Inho wouldn't even receive a present from the chairman why would anyone think he's still under their care? He's been pretty much running away from the family, even the piano lesson was offered freely by that university professor. In any case he's still too much a complication for Sul in my opinion unless he really sort himself out but at the very base i would pick him over Jung any day because he's actually a functional empathetic human being capable of real human relationships that isn't smoke and mirrors. I wouldn't wish Jung as he is now to my worst enemy unless they are exactly the same type, which the author toyed with for a while, but it has been made clear they are different so i'm just going with a no on Jung.

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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Ixis on Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:46 am

Jung currently isn't a suitable candidate, however, his interactions with Sul will likely help him with his issues and thus why I'm in support of them together (not necessarily for the long run, since I have no idea how it'll turn out). Jung is definitely self involved and selfish, and definitely worse than In Ho. However, when it comes to Sul he focuses on her, which is what I meant but perhaps wasn't clear about.

I'm basing the fact that he's under their care on both Jung's statements to Sul and to his father on the phone. To me it seems odd that he wouldn't single out In Ha if she were the only one. He always mentioned the both of them each time. I realize In Ho didn't accept the gift, but that may be because it wasn't cash?

They aren't the same type, and I don't think the same type in this case would be good... I think Sul may be the only one who can help Jung... or, at least, help him to get help. She does know full well what sort of person he is which is why I'm in support of it -- if she had no idea about his true nature I'd definitely be screaming at my computer for her to RUN!! GET OUT OF THE HOUSE!!!!

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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Doonge on Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:12 pm

I really fail to see exactly how is Jung selfish, or self-involved.  I mean, more than anyone would be.  especially after one says In Ho is "not selfish".
And about In Ho, even if he doesn't accept presents from the chairman, he's still being sent those presents, and he just choose to throw them garbage, or give them to somebody else (his sister).  He doesn't tell he doesn't want them, so bottom line is the chairman IS throwing money at him.

From what I can see, Jung doesn't go out of his ways to do selfish things.  He doesn't take away stuff from others, and doesn't spontaneously start doing stuff that is a burden for others etc...
In fact, he's very keen on not bothering others (not involving others would be more correct, he wants to be left alone).  He's deviating from that only with people who he feels did "wrong" to him.  Or when others are being too much invasive (I'd wager it's the same from his point of view).
What's "dangerous" about Jung is his way of retaliating. How kinda "passive-aggressive" he is.  How he's thinking he has to do his own justice.

Jung helps others, pay food for others, is very VERY considerate towards Sul's schedule.  He's giving a little money to the female hobo so she goes away and doesn't get involved with the guards. Some of those things might not be genuine, but in that case it's mostly because it's what is expected from him, his social status.  He constantly has to deal with leechers, and he chooses the easiest path (probably that easily because it's not his money, but his father's ^^).

So, that people call Jung selfish or self-involved is beyond me: I don't see anything in his behavior that earn the label.

In Ho is primal, he might have his heart on his sleeves (I think that's the expression), but overall he's thick and he is selfish.  He's a thief (previous boss money, milk in the fridge), a thug (fake fights), he's shown to be insensible to her sister's art difficulties (because he's himself gifted). What did he do in the serie that could be altruistic? I can't think of anything.
Jung is more intellectual, reserved, and he is manipulative. He is an achiever, and he is enduring (alcohol, seeing his father trusting others children more than him, all the leeches around him...).  He's forced to look sociable and do stuff with his peers, and so he does even if he doesn't want to (he feels buried).  He is very wary of people who try to approach him (and understandably so), so he deflects them manipulatively and effectively.  What did he do in the serie that could be altruistic? He's taking alot on himself, he's helping Sul, he's solving disputes even if it costs him the very "admiration" from peers that poisons him.  He mostly does what is expected of him, even if it's not what he ultimately wants. That is definitively not selfish nor self-involved. But it can be seen as a weakness. He is not strong/frank enough to do what he wants. So that might be soemthing that is unattractive.

I can understand Jung is not really the perfect prince, because he is not honest, he is manipulative.  Those are big problems. But selfish? How so?
And to say that his relation would turn out as smoke and mirror, well I can't say I agree with that.  You could say it if Jung was pathologically manipulative, systematically playing on other's emotions, and with a streak of such things in his past, but that's not what he does.  We are shown how he dealt with previous girlfriends: it's very blunt and obvious from the get-go that those girlfriend will gain no attention whatsoever.  He doesn't involve himself emotionally with most people, because he doesn't care about them, they are imposing themselves on him.
In Ho is astounded at how Jung seems to care about Sul (chapters about how Sul lost her phone and In Ho found it).  For In Ho, seeing Jung like that is a first, so who's to say the relation is doomed to smoke and mirror? We can't say.  But In Ho warns her at how Jung can retaliate ruthlessly on some weird whim, because he's bottling his feelings.
Very strange how at some point Jung is comforting Sul (and offers her a sweet cake) and say it's not good for her to keep all her problems for herself, and that her friends are there to listen to her, and talking about problems might be cathartic in itself.  I guess he is familiar with that, and might have seen that in himself.
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Ixis on Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:55 am

I don't really mean that Jung is selfish in the way that In Ho is. Jung is selfish the way that a child is, in that he thinks only of himself. How others are affecting him, how others did him wrong. He is concerned with his image more than being honest. He, in general, dislikes people because they're a bother to him, and takes whatever measures to deal with them as quickly as possible so they'll be the least amount of trouble to him. And he thinks that things always have go his way. If things don't, then he "corrects" this. A couple of examples -- of course, the incident with the girl and the doll. Instead of going to play with the girl, or just not, he instead chose to get revenge because if you wrong HIM, well, that is not acceptable!! Not even on the girl, but on his friend, who merely hit him on the head for saying something creepy (though I actually didn't think it was that creepy... lol). "I won't be looked down upon." "You are not allowed to cross me." These are the sorts of thoughts I see circling in his head. Jung does not accept being put in a "one down" position no matter how minor, which reflects his ego/pride which ties into his selfishness. Essentially, he thinks very highly of himself to the extent that everything is about him having to protect his feelings of superiority.
The bit with the frame was similar. I don't think it was that he cared about the frame that much, it's just that it was HIS (by association) and he didn't want anyone else to have it. Thus why he'd rather have it destroyed than let anyone else have it.

In Ho helped out Sul a couple times. He replaced her notes (albeit that was his fault), but he did step in when she was fighting in the hall and then again when she was in the alleyway. These are the only things I can think of off hand. Well, he's given money to In Ha... though apparently that's "expected" of him... I'm not sure why, though, since he's the younger sibling. I guess because he's male? ~_~

The thing is, Jung isn't forced to do those things. He does it because he wants to appear that way.

Agreed; I forgot to touch on the smoke and mirrors bit. Jung really just keeps people at an arm's length. It isn't as though he's manipulative with everyone he meets and interacts with. This only happens when someone has wronged him (or "wronged" him, lol). AFAIK he's been completely honest when dealing with Sul. I mean, he even gets angry and in arguments with her. That's a side that he is careful not to show anyone. He didn't tell her about the scholarship, but honestly, I don't even know how you'd go about doing that. He obviously knew she'd be upset by it, and there really wasn't a "good" time to do it. It wasn't really a lie, either, more like having a secret. Although secrets or purposely withholding information can be bad, it wasn't something that needed to be revealed. Sure, AP Huh was looked down upon, but... well, he did steal someone's credit card. And I think it should be your own damn choice if you want to take back your essay or not!!! And I know it's done in fairness, but shouldn't scholarships only be permitted to people who really need them? ( ´_ゝ`)

Though In Ho was surprised, he did mention something about how Jung is the most dangerous when he seems serious, or something to that effect, which came off to me as though In Ho didn't buy that Jung's feelings were genuine due to a previous incident, but that may be just because In Ho thinks Jung is incapable of it, period.

Yeah... oh, Jung, why won't you take your own advice? =w= Well... it's probably, again, to protect himself since he might feel that if he were to lay all of his feelings bare that he'd be rejected and that'd be too much for him to handle... ahh Jung c'mere to noona (づ ̄ ³ ̄)づ

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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Doonge on Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:11 am

I don't know how I would have reacted if a girl would have broken my toy just because I don't wanna play with her. I'd have found that despicable, and - being a child then, not as cunning though - I would have hated the girl to death. How Jung dealt with the girl is chilling, because he controlled his anger (something a child has troubles to do). Yeah if you wrong a child, the child will think it's not acceptable and try to get revenge, that's how it is. That the boy who hit Jung on the forehead got hit aswell by the adults is merely a coincidence, it's not like Jung asked the parents to do it ^^

Maybe Jung has a superiority complex (at the very least, he despises and doesn't understand people, when he's thinking if he's weird, he thinks it's the others who are, and they are hypocritical - which is true in a sense), and yeah he does not accept to be crossed. That's typical of people who feel they cannot rely on Justice (in a large scale, when there's a poor governement, corrupted or broken, on an individual scale, like Jung, when you cannot rely on your father to get justice). It's not particulary linked to selfishness, because it is somewhat "rational", and you pay a very high price when you don't behave like that in such situations. Lack of strong "social" justice and police pushes people to make their own justice, and be very, VERY keen on their "dignity" and reputation. If, in such circumstances, you have the reputation of being feeble, you're fucked. It's a necessity, and we all tend to behave like that given the same environment (mostly men though). I don't think Jung has an overinflated sense of ego or pride, because he's able to have a good insight on his own behavior, and apologize properly when needed (which is rare, but happens). See chapter where he recognizes being childish with Sul ^^

The frame incident, maybe he didn't care about the frame, and maybe he wanted to have his way (I think so too), but wouldn't you have your way if you sensed your own parents would never side with you? That's terrifying and angering thought. Theorically (to me), as a father I would not give something my son care about to another random boy I just met for the first time, just because he is asking for it and say it's "pretty" (yeah we have no ugly thing in this house, except maybe you right now shitty boy). Why is the father so keen on confronting and breaking Jung? Is it because he want to make a point? That's angering, even if the father is right here (and I don't think he is). If I was Jung, and I sensed my father would throw something I care about just to make a point, I would be very angry on the spot.
Overall, I think that saying Jung has to have his way is inaccurate, because it's focusing on his extremes situations. Overall, Jung is thought by people around him, and the adults around him(when he was a child); as very nice, tempered, obedient, with good grades, etc... This does means that usually, he does what is expected of him, and very well. Might not be genuine, but he is not getting his way, he is complying.
I think Jung doesn't care much in general about the way things are done (because he doesn't care much in general), but yeah there are boundaries that should not be crossed (like everyone). When those boundaries are crossed, you could tell he's going anal on it, but it doesn't seem it happens often. One could tell he wants too much to have his ways for specific stuff, but he doesn't act on his whim most of the time because most of the time he's not being genuine. That's the most I could say.

I forgot about In Ho replacing the notes (doesn't count imho) and helping her during the fight (does count, big plus ^^). He's helping his sister also, yeah kinda, but she's his blood, so doesn't count much as altruistic. Yeah it looked like it was expected of him, weird, and yeah probably because he's male. Maybe sad, but it's still like that in many places, and it's not like it doesn't advantage In Ha ^^
I think In Ho is able to do altruistic things, but on an emotionnal whim, not by default. In Ho is impulsive, and inconsiderate (which means he does bad selfish things like stealing often) most of the time, and Jung is temperedand calculating (which means he might do bad selfish things, but only if it benefits him greatly and if he won't be caught, and if there aren't better alternatives, which means he doesn't do bad selfish things often: he just doesn't have to - unlike In Ho who is poor and cornered, and doesn't think much). All in all, I don't think selfishness is a defining characteristic of Jung nor In Ho, but if I wonder who's more likely to do bad selfish things, then it's In Ho. He's more random, he has more dire conditions (so he lack options).

I didn't understand much the sentence about Jung not being forced to do things, and doing it only for appearances (what is the point?).
If I recall, Jung is warning Sul that Jung is dangerous when he acts all nice or something, and that you can't really know when he's gonna jump at your neck: he's plotting in the dark.

But hands off Jung! I see you! Me I want him to go with Sul, so you don't touch him xD! Drop the comforting noona act or I call the police on you  affraid 
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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Ixis on Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:41 am

Sorry, I meant to say that the mentality he had during childhood still applies today and was using the examples as showing the sort of mindset he has. I think it IS normal for a kid to act like that, but Jung still has that mindset. I think these flashbacks were not to show "Jung as a kid" but "this is what Jung is like, and he's been like that since he was a kid". Well, Jung set it up so that he'd be found out/blamed for the alcohol, though obviously he probably didn't know the adults would hit him... actually, wait, knowing Jung he probably DID. ( ̄□ ̄;) lol

They are linked but they aren't the exact same thing. To steal some quotes: "Ego is what produces selfishness and drives selfish behaviors. Selfish behaviors are a humans attempt to satiate the ego, to satisfy it." "'It's not about me.' The ego generally doesn't like to hear things like this. The ego is selfish by nature; that's what it is. It is selfishness."
I can see feeling justice must be carried out if there is no one to do it. But in Jung's case most of the time there isn't really a reason to do it and it's over something most people would shrug off. For example, Sul snickering at Jung, which could have been over anything, and him taking such offense to this that she became scared shitless of him.
He's able to realize his own behavior but then not. Many things that he does that he thinks are normal are thought of as weird. But, I don't think that his ego is inflated to the extent that he thinks he can do no wrong, just that he's above others. Which is natural considering he hates others... haha
Wasn't she the only person he ever apologized sincerely to? I can't remember. =w=;; I think in general he acts more thoughtfully when it comes to Sul, though.
By the way, I'm not strictly disagreeing. I think that his actions and motives are a lot more complex and have many layers to them beyond "ME JUNG! JUNG SMASH!" I think he finds DISTRIBUTING JUSTICE normal, and I actually think the same, although he usually takes it a bit far. But I think it's partially to do with the fact that "he" has been wronged (aka healing his damaged ego), as well as looking out for himself because he feels that no one else will.

I actually thought that this might be the first incident when Jung's dad tried to teach him a ~lesson~ and that Jung didn't expect it at all. I think Jung's dad honestly wanted to help him but had no clue how to go about it. Which is weird considering he had the same problem. But perhaps that method was used on him and worked?
I don't mean getting his way as in "WE'RE GONNA GO TO DO THIS AND THIS AND THAT!!" but that he has a certain idea of how things should go, and if there's a wrench thrown into the works he corrects it.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say that the word was a defining trait for either of them. I'm really bad at explaining myself >_>;; When I originally said it about In Ho I only meant in terms of a relationship, particularly with Sul, since she needs a person to look after her. And then I went on to clarify what I meant by him being selfish, which made it seem like I was really focusing in on that, but my intent was only to explain myself. >_>;;
And then with Jung I just wanted to clarify I didn't mean he wasn't selfish at all, and then to explain about the type of selfishness he has (protecting his ego/feelings). Not an overly selfish guy or the type of selfish that damages others (except when he does to get revenge, which is a type of selfishness... making yourself feel better, basically). And, again, it made it seem like I was making this way larger than what it is because I had some long posts. >_>;;; But I suppose that Jung mostly acts in his self interest describes him better.
I'm not saying that selfishness is bad or that these characteristics define either character :< Everyone is selfish, just to different degrees. (´・◡・`Wink Furthermore, the line between what is best for your self interest and going beyond that is pretty fine!! They say that when your actions harm others, it's overly selfish, but what if it's a case of it honestly being in your best interest? I think it's more the case of when it isn't in your best interest but you completely disregard others and harm them, such as reckless driving. It isn't in your best interest, but you're only thinking of yourself. On the other hand, you can be super selfish without causing problems or hurting others.

"He's forced to look sociable and do stuff with his peers, and so he does even if he doesn't want to (he feels buried). "
I think I was referring to this. No one is forcing him to do this. Basically, he could act how he wanted, but he learned at the party that it's a lot easier to act the way that he does now. Acting how he wants would actually cause more trouble. It's easier and better for him (in terms of becoming a businessman) to appear as a sociable and all around good guy. Beyond that, I think he does see himself as deserving of admiration even though he also dislikes it. That is the sort of impression I got from the incident with Young Gon. He starts yelling at Jung, and even though no one is on his side or looks down on Jung, his face of shock/horror shows it all, and he gets back at him even though all he did was run off his mouth a bit.

Ah, that's what it was! I think the reason that piqued my interest is because although we, the readers, have seen this, we haven't seen In Ho seeing this so I thought there was going to be a flashback of relevant storyline.

"So, that people call Jung selfish or self-involved is beyond me"
I forgot to address this. I wouldn't really call him self-involved but at the same time I would. He dislikes others and so there's really nothing besides himself to be involved in, if that makes sense. (lol) Though by this definition you would have to consider all loners self-involved, and that doesn't seem accurate. Though I would only say that applies (though, not technically) up to the point when he became interested in Sul. Actually, I think that was another point that I had meant to make -- since he dislikes others and has no interest in them, he's a person who is more turned inward, although that isn't necessarily "selfish" but "self"-ish. //kicked

No!! I can't be taken away by Podori again!! (;´Д`) J...just let me stroke his hair for a bit!! ( ;∀;)

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Re: In Ho or Jung? (Spoilers ahead)

Post  Doonge on Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:20 pm

Don't be sorry, discussing is fun ^^

it's entirely possible he retained a lot of childish aspect to him, if he's never engaged himself emotionally in most of his relations.

I said it and I think you said it too, but everyone is relatively selfish and there's inherently nothing wrong with selfishness. Selfishness is one primary reason our species exists today. So what does "selfish" mean when we use this word commonly? I guess it's when someone does something that could have been done a bit differently and benefits others more (or harm them less), at the expense of some additionnal effort, AND that the ratio additionnal benefit for others / additionnal effort is high enough that people are surprised you didn't do it the alternative way (either because you were not thoughtful of others and didn't think of the alternative way because you were focused entirely on yourself, either because you disregard others and you do not want to engage any effort whatsoever for the benefit of others). For instance if I'm at restaurant with friends, and there's no menu on the table, I stand up and walk near the kitchen to fetch just ONE menu for myself. That is strange, because I could have taken a few more (they are all at the same place) quite effortlessly. That would be seen as selfish (or not toughtful). However, if I'm at the beach, and I'm going to fetch a heavy parasol, just picking one for myself isn't selfish because the effort to fetch one for everyone is high.

By that kind of "common usage", Jung is not selfish, but In Ho could sometimes be.

Also, I personally have a bit troubles of understanding your position on the ego. It's like ego is bad?
I associate this with some kind of extreme Zen stance, where we have to detach ourselves from our ego, to understand and accept more easily (let "it" go). At the extreme, you let everything go and you suppress yourself (you completely suppress your ego), so under what rules does one choose to do anything in life? For that, one has to have a minimum of ego right? You have to have a good opinion of yourself (that is a definitive yes, people constantly lie to themselves to retain a good opinion of themselves), you have to cultivate your ego.
For instance, I would not like it if Sul was snickering at me. Of course, it's not a reason for murder or whatever, and it's best to just let it go, but all Jung did was telling her to be more wary of herself (and ignore her all the more).
If you apply the selfish reasoning to Sul, that you applied to Jung, you'd say the following: isn't it selfish from Sul to be so concerned over who Jung hangs out with? Isn't it selfish to openly snicker at Jung? Isn't Sul selfish?
A parallel was drawn at some point, when Sul was disregarding Bora feelings and her vacation projects when she said "whatever is fine", and in the meantime thinking the same thing when Jung said "whatever is fine" after Sul asks what kind of food he would like to eat ^^
Since Sul consumes a lot of her time studying for her grades, isn't she self involved?
Just teasing ^^

Anyway, I'd say that maybe one problem is that Jung is displaying a facade of niceness and altruism, when he's basically as selfish as anyone else (well, probably less in my opinion because he's confronted to all the leeches' selfishness in his everyday life - the chapter where his peers say it's wasteful to give money to the female hobo that would use to buy alcohol anyway, and then proceed to ask him to invite them to some party is very striking). But that's just going back to his manipulative side ^^ He's a pokerface sneaky snake. Passive aggressive cold bastard.
In Ho said to Sul that she should be more openly selfish, and say upfront when she has problems with people. I think Sul is not frank (well, she's a bit introvert and reserved, the same way as Jung - this makes In Ho and Sul complementary for this, and Sul and Jung assorted), and sometimes the parallels drawn between Sul and MinSoo "the copycat" are... weird. It's like Jung could have seen Sul the same way we are seeing MinSoo...
We have access to Sul's thoughts, so we know she's not as fucked up as MinSoo, but Jung is no mind reader ^^
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